Curse

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 12, 2011, 06:48 AM // 06:48

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Armor does not affect armor ignoring damage period! Not directly or even indirectly. Trying to twist your mind to justify indirect influence of armor on armor ignoring damage only leads to greater confusion and is probably the wrong concept.

You're completely misunderstanding what I am saying.

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I meant that it reduces the effectiveness indirectly, due to the fact that armor-sensitive damage is more effective on targets with lower armor. Right now, in HM Armor ignoring damage is king. If you lowered the armor level, armor sensitive damage will even out when compared to armor -ignoring- damage.

Bolded the important parts. Nowhere in there did I say that armor ignoring damage is affected by armor lol.

In an ideal case, armor is lowered just enough so that armor ignoring damage is still worth something, and isn't completely surpassed by armor sensitive damage.

In a less than ideal case, armor is lowered too much and armor sensitive damage overtakes ignoring damage, and everything is just back to the way it was pre-HM.

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Originally Posted by Kunder

Agreed. Ideally if Barrage/Volley could be buffed to IA's range and IA could have its recharge lowered to 2s or so we would have a lot more variety. Because pretty much everything in PvE needs one of those 3 skills. Barrage would be pure damage, Volley would be for other elites, IA for prep builds.

Rangers have good enough AoE. What they need is either higher damage across the board, or shorter base attack speed. That along with tweaks to traps, bow attacks, and spirits.

Though, I seem to be the only one anymore that thinks balling a group up and blowing them to hell is a terribly boring way to play the game, so the only way anyone will be happy is if every class has baller AoE damage because skrew single target damage.. or something like that.

Horace Slughorn · Dec 12, 2011, 07:23 AM // 07:23

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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

I am for anything that nerfs uwsc. It's just way too easy to clear UW with all these pvx style gimmick builds. Even the old ursan teams pale in comparison.

lol I guess you don't pug uw much... you should try it and you'll realize that most teams fail. even good teams take 20-30 min. is that really too short a time to earn 1 ecto from an end chest? i don't think so...

ot: capped all the ele elites for my ele, guess i'm ready for whatever comes.

zwei2stein · Dec 12, 2011, 07:46 AM // 07:46

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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

That along with tweaks to traps, bow attacks, and spirits.

Spirits could use 3/4s activation times and recharge cuts, that would make them from slow-down skill for players (and AIs "CC yourself for 5 secconds") to something that is at very least not self-inflicted disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Though, I seem to be the only one anymore that thinks balling a group up and blowing them to hell is a terribly boring way to play the game, so the only way anyone will be happy is if every class has baller AoE damage because skrew single target damage.. or something like that.

Well, best way for me is strong single target damage with decent AoE splash.

cthulhu reborn · Dec 12, 2011, 08:34 AM // 08:34

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Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

I realize that higher HP reduces effectiveness of armor ignoring damage. more accurately, LESS ARMOR, reduces effectiveness of armor ignoring damage. indirectly, that is. The DPS of armor ignoring damage would remain constant while the effectiveness of armor sensitive damage would raise.

but the 'higher HP' argument can be made about armor sensitive damage as well. Higher HP just makes killing stuff harder.

The idea that Necros are in bad shape is ridiculous. They have some of the more versatile build options available to them. The only trouble lays in the fact that MOST of these builds are best left to heroes. Necro players don't have much to work with that isn't rehashing hero builds for their own.

I saw this a long time coming though. the more classes get updated, the more other classes, who were fine before, are suddenly wanting their update because people are using the newer updated classes.
But I digress, all this relays on a balance we're not even sure of yet. How much more health they'll have vs how much less armor.

Well, you are right. Less armour and higher HP both reduce the effectiveness of armour ignoring damage.

The argument that higher HP makes killing stuff harder depends. Because it comes together with lowered armour, it will likely not make it harder for normal damage that doesn't ignore armour. I would think that's the point of it. Ele's will do more damage which will offset the HP gain the mobs get.

When I say the necro is in bad shape, you misunderstand me. I know that there are a few builds that are very efficient, but as you stated it's better to let heroes do them. This is part of the problem. It just isn't fun to play a necro anymore. The versatility you speak of doesn't exist so much within specific lines. Sure you can be MM in various ways but yeah it's not a fun thing to do, it's tedious at best. For curses SS, MoP can work really well, but that is for curses then is it?

And not sure what the FotM builds do with blood magic these days, but even there blood has already been nerfed with longer recharge times and even though a lot of skills are offensive skills in the blood line, it's just not a very viable line, especially now that SV will become less effective by this update, for example.

So, I still believe that this update will even further limit the options for players playing necro's. The N/Rt build is obviously untouched and so are the MM builds so the basic heroes everybody runs will not change much there.

I just feel that Anet saw that the Rit was too good of a dps choice, especially for secondaries, so they made some changes there with the spirits and nerfed some of their skills so their dps wouldn't go crazy in HM in comparison. So that's fine.

But even the SS/MoP combo will be less effective because they deal armour ignoring damage. I will say though, that a lot depends on how much the armour of mobs is lowered and how much HP they will gain. This will determine how much of an effect this will have on the necro class.

And to answer the other person about going to UW: No, I don't pug to UW much, because I hardly ever go to UW anymore at all. I just don't think it means that much anymore to me. I got two obsidian sets when it still meant something. Now it's all too easy to go farm ecto's.

I really just wonder why in this game, you either are stuck with bad builds or gimmick builds. There doesn't seem to be something in between much.

The idea that people do UW split up into smaller groups and can do this, means that it's not an elite zone anymore, but that's just my view on that. I think for pugs the biggest problem is how the quests are so easy to fail just because of a silly thing. I am sure that a pug can do UW but it takes a long time. I understand that UWSC exists, because the problem too is that in a normal way it really takes too long to complete it. Instances that take hours to complete...well, most people don't have the time for that.

Still, they saw that the ele was underused and decided to do something about that even before taking on the para problem and for me, in the mean time the necro will get nerfed because their effectiveness is lowered again. By how much, well that entirely depends on the actual changes in HM. I haven't seen numbers on that yet. I am thinking though that people will start taking more ele's instead of necro's. Of course I could be wrong, but this is my expectation. Ele enemies will certainly rip through minions (and spirits) a lot easier now too and that's another side effect that can be expected. I really cannot help but wonder how this will affect the game. It could be interesting I suppose but we'll see I guess.

Marverick · Dec 12, 2011, 08:36 AM // 08:36

The majority of bow attacks are just completely useless. For example Determined Shot, Crossfire, Called Shot, Quick Shot, Focused Shot, Arcing Shot, Precision Shot, etc. etc.

The majority of pet attacks are also useless, although not as much...
IMO there needs to be a PvE-only pet skill that costs 0 energy, has like <5s recharge, and lets your pet shadowstep to target foe.

Traps should work like bundles. You can set up a trap beforehand and carry it, and then drop it where you want to place it.

Chthon · Dec 12, 2011, 09:56 AM // 09:56

1. I'm a little puzzled how this managed to become an issue of confusion, but it seems that it has.
A. The monster armor reduction is a buff for armor-sensitive damage, while it is completely neutral with respect to armor-ignoring damage.
B. The monster hp increase is a blanket nerf to all player damage -- armor-sensitive and armor ignoring alike.
THat's it. That's all. It's not that difficult to understand.

2. Rangers... rangers... rangers... yeah. There's a LOT of things wrong with rangers -- far too many to fully discuss here. I'm only going to touch on one topic since people have brought it up: Kunder is essentially correct about the causes of rangers' energy problems:
A. You get a discount from expertise, but a-net jacked the price up on everything before giving you the discount. The net result is that your attack skills are still way too expensive, especially in light of the huge attribute cost you're paying. (FYI: Necromancers are in very much the same boat, particularly when it comes to Prophecies skills.)
B. PvE skills are generally not affected by expertise, which means that many of the best skills in the game are back-breakingly expensive for rangers. Of particular note, EBSoH is probably optimal for just about every bow build imaginable, but for the fact that it's often prohibitively expensive.
Short of completely reworking expertise, it seems that the best solution is to provide the ranger with some decent non-elite skills for re-gaining energy. Probably increase the energy gain or lower the recharge on Scavenger Strike (and/or fix the pet AI to be more reliable); and make a bow attack to serve the same purpose. (Body Shot doesn't count since it's unreliable and returns less energy than it costs to apply cracked in the first place.)

cthulhu reborn · Dec 12, 2011, 10:10 AM // 10:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chthon

1. I'm a little puzzled how this managed to become an issue of confusion, but it seems that it has.
A. The monster armor reduction is a buff for armor-sensitive damage, while it is completely neutral with respect to armor-ignoring damage.
B. The monster hp increase is a blanket nerf to all player damage -- armor-sensitive and armor ignoring alike.
THat's it. That's all. It's not that difficult to understand.

Except what you say isn't true. The actual effect I do not know because it depends on how much of an armour reduction there is and how much of a HP increase.

To give you a rough example.

A given mob has 500 hp. A life stealing skill does 50 points of life stealing. This means that you need to cast the skill 10 times.

Now the armour goes down of the mob, but he goes to 600 HP so the life stealing skill needs to be cast 12 times against the same mob.

Now the other side of it. An ele casts a spell that does 80 damage but because of the armour of the mob it does 50 damage. So also this skill needs to be cast 10 times to kill the mob of 500 hp. Now the mob gets 600 hp but his armour is reduced and suddenly the same spell does 60 damage and the ele only needs to cast the same spell 10 times still.

End result of the combination of armour decrease and hp increase in this example is that the necro will have cast the spell 12 times instead of 10 time and the ele still casts 10 times. In comparison this is a nerf for the necro because life stealing is now less effective than elemental damage.

This is just a simple example and doesn't even take the improvements to a number of ele spells, but the thing is, we don't know how much the armour will be decreased and how much hp will be added. However, as the example shows, if it's neutral towards armour affected damage, it will be an indirect nerf to armour ignoring damage.
But it may not be that way at all. At this point it is unknown to me how much armour reduction there will be and how much hp will be added. That will determine the exact effect, however, as this is supposed to be a boost for ele's I am worried about the negative effect on armour ignoring damage.

Zakarr · Dec 12, 2011, 10:29 AM // 10:29

Life stealing has four effects: reducing enemy HP, gain same amount as HP, ignore armor and ignore some other protections.

I don't know how useful the last three effects are nowadays in PvE, but still elemental damage and life stealing damage shouldn't be equal because of other benefits life stealing offers. Maybe Anet should just redesign PvE the way that life stealing and elemental damage have their own moments.

Xenomortis · Dec 12, 2011, 10:37 AM // 10:37

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Originally Posted by cthulhu reborn

Except what you say isn't true. The actual effect I do not know because it depends on how much of an armour reduction there is and how much of a HP increase.

Chthon's statement is completely consistent with yours. In fact, yours is an immediate corollary.

cthulhu reborn · Dec 12, 2011, 10:49 AM // 10:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zakarr

Life stealing has four effects: reducing enemy HP, gain same amount as HP, ignore armor and ignore some other protections.

I don't know how useful the last three effects are nowadays in PvE, but still elemental damage and life stealing damage shouldn't be equal because of other benefits life stealing offers. Maybe Anet should just redesign PvE the way that life stealing and elemental damage have their own moments.

It isn't equal but I wanted to keep the example simple replace life stealing with armour ignoring damage if that helps.

Still I disagree with the 4 effects you talk of. Sure it reduces hp and ignores armour but they are linked. Life stealing usually deals with a lot lower numbers as a consequence, so you cannot treat them separately.

the life it gives the caster is insignificant compared to the damage being dealt in pve specifically, maybe in pvp it is a little better but not much I would think.

I don't know what other protections you are referring to. As a matter of fact, damage reduction reduces all types of damage, armour ignoring or not, so I don't believe that 4th one.

My point is simply that the HM changes of armour and HP can have an indirect negative effect on life degen and armour ignoring damage, simply because armour ignoring damage will take longer to do the same and the ele's damage will remain equally effective or better as far as dps is concerned.

Necro skills might have some added benefit at times, but I would suggest looking at the ele skills as they will change where a number of skill will have multiple effects. No, I think it's great for eles, not so great for a number of other classes.

And it will be interesting to see pve mobs/bosses use the new ele skills.

----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Chthon's statement is completely consistent with yours. In fact, yours is an immediate corollary.

I think I just mistook his point with those statements. I see what you mean.

Mintha Syl · Dec 12, 2011, 11:29 AM // 11:29

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Originally Posted by Da Kenster

Heh, so much discussion about the skill update. I'm still curious to see what happens with Nick and/or Yakkington tomorrow

Yeah as usual the thread discusses everything but the actual update (seen the ele update is not in " Update - Thursday, December 8, 2011"). Any ideas on what's gonna happen? I figure they're gonna hand out new gifts or something like that, really curious.

cthulhu reborn · Dec 12, 2011, 01:31 PM // 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintha Syl

Yeah as usual the thread discusses everything but the actual update (seen the ele update is not in " Update - Thursday, December 8, 2011"). Any ideas on what's gonna happen? I figure they're gonna hand out new gifts or something like that, really curious.

Well, that's not fair.

The original update actually contained this information and then it was pulled to be delayed as confirmed in this thread.

What's there to discuss about Yakkington anyway? There's no way to figure out what that means until something happens. My guess is new items. Done.

At least with the planned skill update there is something to discuss. I would imagine that as far as Yakkington is concerned we will have an idea what this is all about.

Did I miss anything?

DiogoSilva · Dec 12, 2011, 02:52 PM // 14:52

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Originally Posted by Daesu

Since they have already buffed up Rits and Mesmer damages, one can also say they have buffed them up for NM too.

Rits and mesmers damage was buffed for ALL modes of the game. PvP, NM, HM. It was so because the developers felt that those classes needed more damage to be useful. The source of the problem was on the professions themselves.

Elementalists are in a completely different situation, because they already have great base damage, but HM is more discriminatory to them than to other professions. The source of the problem lies on the mechanics of HM.

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But Anet doesn't have to scew with everyone's damages by making such a blanketing change on armor/hp ratio.

Anet is not screwing anything, they are fixing something that is screwed. Hard Mode mechanics favor some professions overs others for absolutely no reasons, and what Anet is doing now, is leveling the playfield, by making armor-ignoring damage less OP, and armor-sensitive damage equally viable.

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If they want to buff eles, just buff up their damage numbers enough

But they don't want to buff the numbers of elementalists. Notice how they left their strongest damaging elites untouched. They want to remove the discrimination towards elementalists in one of the game's modes, and increase the number of viable strategies for them in all modes. The former because HM screws them up, the latter because it's one of the core problems of the profession.

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They don't have to nerf armor ignoring damage and make rits and mesmers kill slower (due to higher hps) in order to buff eles. They can just buff up eles enough to make them balanced.

But rits and mesmers are not balanced in the first place. They are currently the two PvE professions that are considered overpowered as a whole. Their damage is to be nerfed regardless of an elementalist buff or not. Making a third profession overpowered is not a solution, and is going to further desmotivate the use of all other professions.

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I won't be surprised if this update becomes a general resultant nerf to all classes

It probably will be, but it depends on how much armor and HP is changed. In the current state of the game, one of the mechanics of HM (higher armor) is consistently ignored, making it easier than it should.

EDIT: After this and after the melee AI update, it'll be fun to see warriors, dervishes and elementalists back to the best hero builds, and not rely on double-mesmers and double-ritualists as much.

Da Kenster · Dec 12, 2011, 03:07 PM // 15:07

Well, it would appear Nick's rotation has been changed, will be interesting to see when we find him.

Amy Awien · Dec 12, 2011, 03:17 PM // 15:17

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Originally Posted by Kunder

... Not quite as good as melee because of the slower attack speed ...

So, zero effective builds.

Anything will deliver Splinter Weapon, and scythes don't even need a skill to do it fast.

Daesu · Dec 12, 2011, 05:36 PM // 17:36

@Axel: Not trying to attack you. I needed to point out that what you were saying has the potential of giving others a false impression.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiogoSilva

Elementalists are in a completely different situation, because they already have great base damage, but HM is more discriminatory to them than to other professions. The source of the problem lies on the mechanics of HM.

And that was when they created a new condition known as cracked armor which they can undoubtedly buff that condition if they wish to, without raising the hp of HM monsters.

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Anet is not screwing anything, they are fixing something that is screwed. Hard Mode mechanics favor some professions overs others for absolutely no reasons, and what Anet is doing now, is leveling the playfield, by making armor-ignoring damage less OP, and armor-sensitive damage equally viable.

That is the wrong way of fixing the problem. They can level the playing field without nerfing everyone. But I will hold off on my judgement until the update.

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It probably will be, but it depends on how much armor and HP is changed. In the current state of the game, one of the mechanics of HM (higher armor) is consistently ignored, making it easier than it should.

If it is a general resultant nerf, isn't it funny that some people on this thread kept asking ANet to apply the update NOW rather than later. I don't think they understand what is going on.

If they have been playing the most challenging aspects of the game, they won't think that the professions deserve a blanketing nerf. Sure easy mode (even HM vanquishing in general) is easy as they are meant to be, but then again very few people are playing in the areas that I am currently playing in (HM UW and HM DoA) with just heroes, and no cons.

Axel Zinfandel · Dec 12, 2011, 09:26 PM // 21:26

TBH, i would hope to see Strength of Honor changed a % base increase for all physical damage (or nerfed a bit altogether) before anything is changed with ranger/paragon, so ranged physicals aren't automatically shafted right out the door.

Cuilan · Dec 12, 2011, 09:57 PM // 21:57

Mesmers will still have a degeneration PvE skill that drains energy and a 50 AoE with degeneration skill that only rupts a single foe. Sounds great.

Thot · Dec 12, 2011, 10:14 PM // 22:14

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Originally Posted by Cuilan

Mesmers will still have a degeneration PvE skill that drains energy and a 50 AoE with degeneration skill that only rupts a single foe. Sounds great.

Maybe then they could change degeneration mechanics from "you loose x hp per seconds" to "you loose x% of your total hp per second" ?

Kaida the Heartless · Dec 12, 2011, 10:19 PM // 22:19

It was stated by Anet that they are changing the mobs HP/Armor because upping the Ele's damage to compensate would turn some Hardmode Elementalists into absolute nightmares to play against.

If you wanted to remain effective, armor ignoring damage has been the only option [in hardmode] for the longest time now. It's such complete overkill currently, I doubt that upping monster health, even by 25%+, will amount to anything noticeable anywhere other than UW, DoA, and possibly Slavers and FoW. Add the new Ele's into the equation, and people will be back to exploding the endgame content at records speeds in no time.

Reliable static damage should do less than variable elemental damage. It's the ol' reliability vs. potency. Besides, I've looked over the Ele changes and there are some STUPIDLY strong combinations coming up. I'm excited to run something other than 20 Mesmers in my party.

Honestly, this update is probably going to be a good thing. I'm getting tired of Gwen's complaining. :P